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Author Topic: Don't Lie  (Read 8516 times)

Offline Admin

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Don't Lie
« on: March 20, 2013, 09:48:52 PM »
You want to be poly...you want a girlfriend, wife, boyfriend, husband or maybe just a friend with benefits.  What ever your motivation, don't let your desire override your common sense.  Some people may be excited when they meet someone but they end up having differences...so they lie.  They lie for any number of reason...fear of loss, wanting to click, impress the others or worst case scenario, they are up to no good.  Don't be that person.  A relationship must be built on truth and trust.  People can grow together, learn and change together; that is different than becoming something else in order to draw a person into a relationship.  Once the truth comes out, it can lead to all kinds of trouble.  Love them for them and let them love you for you.

Don't lie. 

Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2013, 08:05:18 AM »
To be fair I have had this in Mono too, more than once in fact..I think this is a tactic mostly of the insecure, they want to be liked and so they "embellish" or tell you what they 'think' you want to hear.

It's deceitful and one of the reasons for such dysfunctional relationships but it is not specifically Poly.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 09:59:06 AM »
Lying just is not positive in any relationship.  I have never seen good come from lying to partners or potential partners.  One can be honest, yet tactful with that honesty. When being honest, you never have to worry what lies you told who and when you told them and if you told different lies to different partners; it will catch up with you and definitely be detrimental to the trust already built in a relationship. 

Though some find honesty to be a difficult way of communicating, possibly for fear of disappointing a mate or having a diferrent view than a mate, but really, it is ok to have your own thoughts, feelings and opinions, beliefs and so on.  Only by being open and honest do you give your mate(s) a chance to love you for who you are and not someone you think they want you to be.

People pleasers often struggle with beiing honest as they don't want to rock the boat or they fear losing something (love, intimacy, respect, to name a few).  Honesty is key in any relationship, be it mono or poly, friendship, lovers, family, anyone you have a relationship with with.

Funny story:  DeeDee one night had come to my apartment to make me dinner while I was at work.  I got home as planned for my dinner  break and she had made one of my favorites, scalloped potatoes and ham.  I took one bite and knew I didn't like it.  Instead of being honest, I ate it and declared how wonderful it was.  Honesty, it had an "off" taste to me that I did not recognize or care for.  After we were married, DeeDee happily made scalloped potaoes and ham for dinner one evening, seeings how I'd liked it so well previously.  I could not go through another meal trying to eat something I defintely did not like.  So I inquired as to the ingredients and found the culprit....dry mustard.  I dislike mustard in any form, flavor, etc.  So I broke down and told Dee I didn't like the dry mustard.  It broke her heart that I had not been honest the first time she served the dish.  To be fair, she is a fabulous cook; I just happen to like my food without seasoning.  I had not wanted to hurt her feelings after all the hard work she had put into the first dinner and I certainly wanted more opportunities to get to know her better and pursue her vigorously as a partner in life; so I lied and I hurt her deeply.  It gave her a complex about cooking for me, which I think she is long since past.  Lucky me.

This just goes how to show even a simple lie as I told can cause extreme harm to an individual or group.  I've learned to be much more tactful also when I need to be truthful about something.  If something I think is so small can cause hurt, just think what deeper, darker lies can do to a relationship.  Lying is not an acceptable form of communication and it creates drama for all involved and breaks down trust, which may then be very hard to regain, if at all possible.

I agree with Stead, Don't lie.

And Natja made a great point, this happens in mono relationships as well as poly ones.  No relationship is immune from the devastation of lies.

Be well all and strive to be tactfully honest (sometimes blunt honesty must be used, though)

Bud

Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 12:38:47 PM »
Well said Bud!!
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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2013, 01:41:30 PM »
I second Natja!

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 07:45:10 PM »
Great input everyone.  Actually though, the original post was from Antony: he is Admin.  I, Steady, am Administrator. 

We have heard people lie about their expectations for a poly relationship when courting/dating others, and the lies have caused many issues within the relationship because these same people never felt happy in the relationship. Why were they not happy?  Because they lied to their partners about the expectations in order to meet their partners expectations to be a good match.  They may have even thought they could live happily within these lies, but soon found out they could not be happy because it was never really what they wanted.

A few examples of some of these lies:

-Women have claimed to be bi-sexual even when they were not because they loved the male of a couple when the couple were looking for a bi-sexual female
-People have claimed to want to all live in the same house even though they would rather not because that is what the others wanted
-People have claimed to want to share a bed and a room even when they did not want to because the others wanted to share a room and a bed
-People have said they did not want anymore or any children even though they did because their partners did not want more or any children
-People have stated they wanted children even though they did not because the partners wanted them
-People have claimed to love or even like every partner in the relationship even though they did not in order to please the others in the relationship
-People have stated they wanted poly when in reality they really wanted monogamy with one person with the poly relationship
-People have said that they agreed with their partner's beliefs even though they did not
-People have told their partners that they agreed with their ideas on parent even though they did not in order to maintain the relationship

These are just a few of the common lies that we have heard people tell others in order to be poly with them.  These lies ALWAYS end up hurting the people involved including the liar because they soon discover they cannot live up to their lies, which only makes them extremely unhappy.




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Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 08:19:43 AM »

We have heard people lie about their expectations for a poly relationship when courting/dating others, and the lies have caused many issues within the relationship because these same people never felt happy in the relationship. Why were they not happy?  Because they lied to their partners about the expectations in order to meet their partners expectations to be a good match.  They may have even thought they could live happily within these lies, but soon found out they could not be happy because it was never really what they wanted.

A few examples of some of these lies:

I don't know if all of the following can be considered lies, after all, sometimes you never know anything until you experience it and many of us have gone into Poly relationships without having significant experience so don't exactly know how we will feel about something. Some of these 'lies' are situations I can relate to in many ways as life changes related to growing experience.

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-Women have claimed to be bi-sexual even when they were not because they loved the male of a couple when the couple were looking for a bi-sexual female

I think this is only something that could happen in real life though, I am worried at this idea of a couple seeking a woman, husband goes out one night to a Poly event and  meets up with a woman, they have great chemistry and he gets to know her over the following few days so she starts to fall for him, that might give rise to a lie, but why would a couple seeking a bi woman (say, online)  who state that clearly in their profile ever be contacted by a straight woman?

I have issues anyway with people dating as a couple, but even more so if someone turns up at a Poly event on their own but goes about with a couple mindset looking for the 'two of them'.  It is the worst aspect of the Unicorn Hunt really and to be honest I find it hard to garner any sympathy.

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-People have claimed to want to all live in the same house even though they would rather not because that is what the others wanted

I know that personally when I started this Poly journey (I think you may remember) I thought the idea of separate homes as pointless, after some experience though I definitely began to see the point.  I did not lie, I experienced and learnt more about myself.  This could happen and it not be a lie.
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-People have claimed to want to share a bed and a room even when they did not want to because the others wanted to share a room and a bed

Ditto to the above, experience can change things, even just being plain experimental.  I was certainly adamant that I was not going to share a bed with a husband and my sisterwife.  I could never imagine doing something so intimate with a non partner sharing a bed. I was openly judgemental about it. Of course then I tried it and ended up having a very unexpected relationship structure that I had not really seriously considered.  Was I lying at first?  No, I wasn't.  Would I do it again?  No, never. It probably was not the best thing for me.  I think we are far too quick to call things lies when it is growth and growing awareness of what is best for you.

I have had a long history of ignoring intuition and second guessing myself though so it does not surprise me that I now realise that my impulsive feelings about bed sharing was probably the right one for me, but then I take issue with the idea of not giving something a chance though so it make make decision making for me very complex.
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-People have said they did not want anymore or any children even though they did because their partners did not want more or any children
-People have stated they wanted children even though they did not because the partners wanted them

These things do change also, my cousin was adamant he never wanted kids, even after he was married.  Several years later he is the most doting father.  I also have an ex who lost his wife after changing his mind.  Was he lying to her when he married?  No, he just wasn't sure what would happen in the future, but when the future came he decided against it, his wife wanted kids though and left him.  He was devastated.
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-People have claimed to love or even like every partner in the relationship even though they did not in order to please the others in the relationship

I am sorry but I find this really hard to imagine, even pretending to like someone is hard for me, I could never pretend to 'love' someone. 

Some of those things seem to be retroactively applying behaviours due to disappointment in a failed relationship rather than truly appreciating that people's feelings change, or that a possible breakdown in communication could have led to changed feelings.

It seems very easy to say 'that person lied' because then you are casting the blame all on one person and therefore you don't have to examine one's own destructive behaviours that could have contributed to a bad outcome of that particular relationship. Or perhaps assume they lied because you cannot imagine how someone's feeling have changed when yours have not.  This can be especially the case in Poly because if you have one person who experienced the same behaviours, but have not had the same adverse reaction, it can be taken as validation of said behaviour, but you have to always keep in mind that individuals react to things differently, what may sound reasonable to one person, might seem like terrible behaviour to another.

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-People have stated they wanted poly when in reality they really wanted monogamy with one person with the poly relationship

This is something that is documented in the Poly community, I am not too sure how common the 'Cowgirl/boy' phenomenon actually is but I know that experienced Poly people put in certain dating practises to avoid this, for example they might only date other experienced Poly people or only date those who have other partners.  Of course those who seek partners who specifically do not have other partners (Unicorn Hunters/Polygamist) or chat up monogamous people are far more likely to fall into a cow trap than more open forms of Polyamory.
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-People have said that they agreed with their partner's beliefs even though they did not
-People have told their partners that they agreed with their ideas on parent even though they did not in order to maintain the relationship

To be honest these could just as easily happen within monogamous relationships, my ex husband lied all the way through our courtship to 'get' me, my best friend experienced it too....and you know, books like 'The Rules' encourage women to pretend to have interests that they do not have to 'snag' a male.  This is not Poly deceit, this is relationship deceit, borne out of desperation for the relationship.  Of course in these cases the truth will always out, because you can only pretend to be someone you are not for a set period of time.

It is annoying, it is dysfunctional but it isn't a specific Poly issue.

Natja
 
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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 10:17:16 AM »
I could totally understand and agree that a person can enter into the relationship with one set of expectations and then change.  The change can happen because they learn more about themselves or poly.  It can happen through just growth as an individual or because they thought they would feel one thing but realized (for what ever reason) it wasn't as bad (or maybe it was worse) than they originally thought.  This is understandable and we as people must be understanding of this.

Unfortunately, every thing I listed I have witnessed at one point or another in poly relationships where the individual was not changing but knew their mind before hand and deliberately lied regardless.  There is a difference between adamantly believing you do not want kids and then discovering you do and adamantly believing you do not want kids and telling your potential partners you do knowing you really don't.  One is growth and change...the other is an outright lie.  I've heard of the men and women who became part of a "V" because they only wanted to be with one partner and thought they could "win" over one of the partners and drive away the other.  I'm not talking about growth and change.  I'm talking about the outright lies.  It makes no sense why they would choose to lie though I can venture some guesses.  Over the years, I have seen people lie with the intention of driving away one partner.  I've seen them lie because they just want to be in that particular family or they wanted a person to join their particular family.  In one religious internet polygamy group, one woman was upset because the husband and wife lied about being okay with her going to college.  After she joined the family, the very next day, they made their religious views of a "woman's role" very clear and informed her that she would not be allowed to attend college.  She was expected to make babies (even though they said they did not want more children), cook and maintain the house.  Because of her religious views, she felt she was trapped in the marriage.  The group (believing divorce was a sin) told her she had no choice but to stay.  It later came out she left.

That wasn't growth and change.  They lied to that woman.  It makes no sense to do it except selfishness.  That's what I'm talking about here.  Deliberate lies in order to gain access to a family or to trick someone into joining your family.   Every lie listed I have seen if not once, then repeatedly in internet circles over the years.  My point is, whether your a man or woman, couple or poly practicing family, don't deliberately lie in order to gain access to a family or to trick someone into joining your family.

Then you have the "well intentioned lies".  The couple who has a wife who doesn't want to share a bed with the other wife but tells the husband she does because she wants to make him happy.  The husband who really doesn't want to be poly but says he does because he's scared he will lose his wife if he doesn't.  The woman who really wants children but tells the family she doesn't because she loves them and really wants to be with them and really thinks she can change their mind after she is a part of the family.  This again is growth and change...these are deliberate lies which can lead to heart ache.

People will grow, learn more and change.  This is normal.  We as individuals must recognize this and be patient with our partners, knowing they do not have malice.  But if when a person knows their mind and deliberately lies...this is not good.

Thank you Natja for pointing out how people can grow and change.  It is important that we are patient and not look at every change as a lie.  We must be honest and truly look at what is happening and not just jump to conclusions.

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 10:47:00 AM »
Natja, I do know that people change and grow. I was not speaking about people who later after real poly experience change their mind. Experience will often change our opinions. I was referring to the ones who deliberately lied and later admitted to their lie stating, "I lied because I (wanted to be poly), (wanted to be with you,) or (loved you). 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 05:12:04 PM by Administrator »
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Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 11:47:21 AM »
There are no decent reasons for lying in those situations at all, the problems with some  of those examples though is they can also be mind changes.  I just don't want people to think though if faced with some of those examples given that these are automatically lies, there are alternative reasons. Especially since some people will never admit that they lied (like a cowboy/girl situation for example).

Some things are just hard to prove I mean.

Natja
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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 05:15:43 PM »
I agree Natja that there are no decent reasons for lying.  I know some people act in desperation in order to be poly.  Strangely enough, we saw the lying more in the religious polygamous realms than in the polyamorous realm.  I am not sure as to why though.  Any ideas as to why?

I will admit though the cowgirl/boy situation people usually do not admit to lying. 

I also agree that many of the examples I stated can also be seen as mind changes, but I was actually referring to the myriad of ones to which people actually admitted to lying.  It's interesting that people will admit to lying later after they are already in a poly relationship. 

Are they mind change if a person actually ends up "changing their minds" on all or most of these said examples?  What do you all think?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 05:19:35 PM by Administrator »
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Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 05:48:55 PM »
I agree Natja that there are no decent reasons for lying.  I know some people act in desperation in order to be poly.  Strangely enough, we saw the lying more in the religious polygamous realms than in the polyamorous realm.  I am not sure as to why though.  Any ideas as to why?

Perhaps people who spend a great deal of time involved with the Polyamory community have been immersed in the open and honesty values of the Polyamory community?  People in the PolyA community are very quick to tell you if you are not being 'ethical'.

 
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   It's interesting that people will admit to lying later after they are already in a poly relationship. 

I don't understand this, it is just so, very, pointless.

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Are they mind change if a person actually ends up "changing their minds" on all or most of these said examples?  What do you all think?

I am sorry I don't understand?

Natja
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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 06:08:41 PM »
I have known a few people who said they changed their minds on almost everything that they previously agreed to or wanted?  I wondered if these people actually really changed their minds, or if they just were honest? 

You would think that the religious people would see honesty also as an ethical and moral attribute.  Just a thought.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 08:06:30 PM »
You would think that the religious people would see honesty also as an ethical and moral attribute.  Just a thought.

Actually, I believe *SPIRITUALLY MORAL* people would see honesty as a positive attribute.  Too many "religious" people are not spiritual or moral at all; this has been my experience anyway.

Best Wishes,

Bud

Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2013, 08:26:25 PM »
I have known a few people who said they changed their minds on almost everything that they previously agreed to or wanted?  I wondered if these people actually really changed their minds, or if they just were honest? 

It is hard to know really,  it certainly is possible, especially in the case of young people, I was a vastly different person at the beginning of my 20s as I was by the end, things I thought would fulfil me and keep me happy at 23, was completely different five years later and that should be kept in mind, youth allows for plenty of personal growth some of it shockingly dramatic.  People who know me as I am now, find it hard to understand the motivations behind the choices I made as a younger person. I am by no means that person any more, was I lying?  No, not at all, I truly believed that that was what I wanted, but I changed, both are authentic versions of myself though.

And as I said there is that book 'The Rules' which tells a woman to pretend to be something they are not, which also includes feigning interest in a man's hobbies and interests that they don't have any interest in.  And that is definitely written from a strictly monogamous standpoint.  Getting to the altar is the the prime motivation, for Poly people it might be 'getting that relationship' but it still stems from the idea that all is fair in love and war. The effect on a relationship, whether it is mono or poly is still the same.  You wonder who you patched up with if they have done a total 180 after you are committed?

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You would think that the religious people would see honesty also as an ethical and moral attribute.  Just a thought.

I agree with Bud, religious does not necessarily mean moral, as we have seen quite often with regards to how some religious people treat those who are more vulnerable than they are.

Natja
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