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Author Topic: Don't Lie  (Read 8517 times)

Offline Deorccwen

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2013, 07:25:31 AM »
I think sometimes, when a relationship is going badly or has ended, it can be easy to convince ourselves that the partner who is getting on our nerves was lying all along, rather than that they have changed/grown or that we misunderstood them (maybe because we heard what we wanted to hear, rather than what they were actually saying).  Doing this comfortably assigns blame away from ourselves and onto a person we are already angry with or resentful towards, and means we do not need to feel responsible for our part in the relationship ending.  It's not helpful to do this, though, either in terms of self-development or in terms of rebuilding that relationship as a friendship in the future. 

Personally, I think blaming is never helpful anyway, either self-blame or blame of others.  Sometimes we assign blame because otherwise we would feel the need to blame ourselves.  The solution is to be compassionate and understanding of *ourselves* as well as of others.  We are not perfect, and we can't be: we can only do our best at the time, and be totally honest about who we are and what we truly believe we want *now*, while recognising that that may change in future. 

Another part of the problem is the weight our culture places on the longevity of a relationship, and the sense that the end of a relationship is a failure.  So when a relationship ends, there can be a scramble to paint ourselves as the wronged party, and to assign blame to our ex-partner/s ('S/He lied!') so that friends and family will sympathise with us rather than blame us.  But to paint oneself as a victim is never helpful, as it is a position of weakness that can be hard to see our way out of.  Taking responsibility for those things that are/were our responsibility is a much stronger position, because then we can see a way forward to changing those things that are not working.  Sometimes, perhaps often, there is objectively nobody to blame for a relationship not turning out the way we hoped, and no deliberate wrong-doing, perhaps only some self-deception.  Sometimes, people are simply not as compatible as they thought they were, and they are better off apart than together.  Understanding this, and learning what we can from that relationship - even trying to be grateful for the lessons we have learned - can be a growth experience in itself, although it is, of course, painful to let go of the hopes and dreams we invested in that relationship.   

On the other hand, if it is clear beyond a shadow of doubt that we have been deliberately lied to, we have reason for anger, but also reason to end any commitment based on that lie without compunction and without beating ourselves up emotionally for the pain ending it will cause the lying partner.  A clean break, and move on.  We can be compassionate of them and the reasons they had for lying without allowing ourselves to continue to be a victim of their lies.
For everything that lives is holy, life delights in life.
William Blake (1757 - 1827)

Offline Deorccwen

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 07:39:29 AM »
I wonder whether the reason for an increased rate of lying in the religious polygamy community compared with the polyamory community might not be about social and religious expectations. 

Steady, in the example you gave, the woman who was lied to was under considerable social and religious pressure to stay in that relationship.  It may also have been the case that, even if she left them, she would find it more difficult to subsequently find a partner in either a mono or poly context because she had had sex with her husband on her wedding night.  So there is a great deal of pressure to just put up with it and make the best of what you have. 

By contrast, in the polyamory community, there is no such expectation, nor is there any social premium placed on virginity, sexual 'purity' or the number of sexual partners a woman has had. 

There is much less point trying to mislead someone when they could easily walk out on you without a second thought - and whose complaints about you could make it more difficult for you to subsequently find partners - than somebody who is, in your and their worldview, inextricably tied to you after your wedding night, and who will face social censure and disadvantages if they leave you.   
For everything that lives is holy, life delights in life.
William Blake (1757 - 1827)

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 02:54:53 PM »
Natja and Bud, I agree that religious doesn't necessarily mean moral. However, from my Christian background, I was taught never to lie..."The truth shall set you free."  I think this is why Christians lying to get partners seems like a dichotomy and also extremely saddening.

Deorccwen, your thoughts about religious shunning due to divorce make sense. I know when I went through my divorce due to my ex abusing me my entire Christian family and friends shunned me, and once again shunned me when I entered a poly relationship and still do.

Once again, I know people often change their minds as they mature and have poly
experience, but I was referring to the hordes of people who admitted to actual lying to their partners because they wanted to be poly.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 03:18:29 PM by Administrator »
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Offline beccablue

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2013, 09:40:21 PM »
I loved what you said Bud, very true -- religion and spirituality are 2 entirely separate things aren't they?

The thing about lying is that if you start a relationship with lies and manipulation, even something you *think* is a small matter, the end result is the entire relationship is a lie having been built upon the foundation of a lie(s). No matter how much "good" interaction you have after that, you still got there by lying and the entire foundation is simply false.

When one lies and manipulates to get what they (think they) want, the costs are significant and sooner or later you have to pay up. The sad part is that many others end up having to help pay that bill in the end.

~Becca

Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2013, 03:32:59 AM »

When one lies and manipulates to get what they (think they) want, the costs are significant and sooner or later you have to pay up. The sad part is that many others end up having to help pay that bill in the end.

~Becca


I agree with this post, also I have to add that when people repress that which is very upsetting to them for months maybe years on end, when you finally find out that what you may have said or done for a long period of time, completely oblivious to the fact that it is an 'issue' than it does make you question who on earth had you been in a relationship with that whole time?

Those sort of lies of omission can be just as destructive because it makes you question such a fundamental. 

The lying issue is certainly a complex one, I am not a greatly open person, in general I really hate that over sharing people sometimes do at the beginnings of relationships in an attempt to bond, knowing too much too early can be a turn off for me, I would rather some things be revealed naturally over time, keeps things more exciting anyway but you know, people tend to rush things (I know someone who when meeting someone she liked asked him 'how many people he had had sex with'? I was appalled that she would ask him such a personal question but it appears that she thought it perfectly valid). I am admittedly private but honest, being accused of dishonesty gets my goat up. (or probably more accurately my homicidal maniac up) 

My mother is the worst person for this, she assumes that if she doesn't know something than you must be lying, it is frustrating and part of her control issues with needing to know everything really. 

At the end of the day, whether a person changes their mind or something else, maybe it is best to assume honesty and work from there, than assume dishonesty and make a hurtful and destructive accusation? Even (as much as I hate them) little lies can sometimes be cleared up and forgiven if admitted to and the reason was protective. There really is no need to assume the worst, unless you simply don't trust that person to begin with, in which case it is best to avoid them really. Without trust there can be no security, without security there can be no love.

It still doesn't really help with the admitted liars though, that totally perplexes me.

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2013, 11:32:47 AM »
I have really enjoyed this conversation thread.  Thanks to everyone's input thus far.

On this topic of lying at the beginning of a relationship, it reminds me of a recent Psych show we just watched.  Where Shaun Spencer lied saying he was a psychic in order to get a job at the local police department.  Later, he starts a relationship with Juliet, who is a detective there.  She recently realized he lied about being a  psychic, and she feels that their whole relationship was built upon lies.  He never thought he's end up in a relationship with her, but once he did, he never revealed the truth to her. 

Even though this is a television show, it does reveal the truth about what can occur when a relationship is built upon lies. 
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Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2013, 01:01:16 PM »
Wow that is quite complicated, of course had he told her too soon, he might have lost his job but keeping that going meant he probably lost his girlfriend AND the job.

Still....out of ALL the jobs, a psychic?  That sounds a little wacky that you can apply for a job as a police psychic, could it be the gf was only really interested in the fact that he possessed some unusual power? 

I don't know but what an interesting example....

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Offline Deorccwen

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2013, 02:45:04 PM »
I can see a problem with someone 'assuming honesty and working from there' - or avoiding speaking out because they don't want to hurt their partner - when they feel suspicious about something that partner has said or done.  If they do, then that can actually lead to repression of that person's emotion (of suspicion) against their better judgement, which then leads to the problem you describe, of the partner in question feeling off-balance when it eventually comes out, because they had not realised it was a problem.

I suspect the only way forward is complete frank honesty.  We should phrase it as gently as we can, but we have to get it out and deal with the issue in order to move on together at peace.  But that requires all the partners concerned to be strong enough to hear personal criticism and engage with it honestly without getting enraged or becoming distraught, which is simply not possible for everyone.  It's not easy to listen to personal criticism and deal with it objectively, trying to see things from our partners' point of view as well as our own.  Especially if both or all of our partners agree in their criticism of us, we can feel that they are ganging up on us, even if that is not their intention (this is definitely on of the disadvantages of poly!).

Perhaps, rather than assuming honesty when we feel suspicious and trying to crush down that suspicion, it is better to assume good intentions (i.e. an honest attempt to clear up an issue that bothers them) on the part of our partner/s when they question our honesty, and to meet their questions frankly and compassionately.  Feeling suspicious of a partner's honesty in itself is hurtful and destabilising and breeds insecurity within the dyad.  If we can remember that the partner/s confronting us are themselves in pain, then it may be easier to cope with partner/s questioning our honesty.  However, if partner/s are *constantly* suspicious of our every move and are constantly casting unreasonable and unfounded accusations, then we have to consider whether they may simply be controlling.  And that is a whole different issue.   

'Even (as much as I hate them) little lies can sometimes be cleared up and forgiven if admitted to and the reason was protective.'  I agree wholeheartedly.  And I think people are more likely to engage in these little lies when they feel anxious and insecure than when they feel confident and happy.  Admitting the lie and finding that your partner/s understand and still love you despite it can be very stabilising and end with the person concerned actually feeling more secure than they did before.  But it can be difficult to admit a fault when we already feel so insecure that we needed to tell those little lies. 

In any case, I think we need to work very hard to be compassionate of our partners, even when they are annoying us, but also of ourselves, because none of us is perfect, and sometimes we have to be able to forgive ourselves for falling short of our own high standards before we can actually admit our fault, and move on. 
For everything that lives is holy, life delights in life.
William Blake (1757 - 1827)

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2013, 06:04:38 PM »
Natja, the girlfriend chose not to disclose to the police department that Shaun was not really a psychic because she realizes that instead he is a really good detective, who gets the job done, but she has taken a break from him and asked him to move out while she thinks about the situation.  He, of course, didn't tell her yet because he feared losing his job.  Although, he was getting close to disclosing the information to her, but she found out before he could.  He also felt like he was protecting her by not telling her because the knowledge could jeopardize her career.  I agree it was a very interesting example.  The reason she has taken a break is because her father constantly lied to her and her mom and still does, so for her, honesty is the only policy.

Deorccwen,

I happen to agree that it's not good to suppress our feelings of suspicion with our partners.  Suppressing them only leads to further suspicion and mistrust.  It's better to have a polite and loving conversation about the issue.  Air it out.  Once we start suppressing our emotions, it cascades to further suppression, and eventually, we will not share our emotions at all because we will not feel comfortable and too vulnerable.  It's a slippery slope.
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Offline Natja

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Re: Don't Lie
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2013, 04:16:31 AM »
Natja, the girlfriend chose not to disclose to the police department that Shaun was not really a psychic because she realizes that instead he is a really good detective, who gets the job done, but she has taken a break from him and asked him to move out while she thinks about the situation.  He, of course, didn't tell her yet because he feared losing his job.  Although, he was getting close to disclosing the information to her, but she found out before he could.  He also felt like he was protecting her by not telling her because the knowledge could jeopardize her career.  I agree it was a very interesting example.  The reason she has taken a break is because her father constantly lied to her and her mom and still does, so for her, honesty is the only policy.

Quote
It's better to have a polite and loving conversation about the issue. 

Oh dear, that is even more complex because you can see his concern and you can definitely see her point also.  I this way it is a really good  way to look how the issues of honesty affect us and exactly how complex those issues can get.  Especially when you consider there is a culture within relationships of 'little white lies' to spare feelings...'No, darling, your hair looks lovely' 'Yes, you are the best lover I have ever had...'
Personally I would never say that myself but I wouldn't say I was radically honest either, there has to be some sort of balance between being truthful and being compassionate and yes, polite and loving instead of hostile and accusatory.   :)

Natja

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